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tv   Studio B With Shepard Smith  FOX News  May 13, 2013 12:00pm-1:01pm PDT

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with all the good years ahead, look for the experience and commitment to go the distance with you. call now to request your free decision guide. >> megyn: thanks for watching. here's shepard. >> shepard: continuing coverage of breaking news and the verdict is in, in the murder trial of controversial abortion doctor kermit gosnell. shannon is up and ready to report. at this point we don't know what the verdict is yet. at it our belief they're reedling it now but that could go on for quite some time. we believe it gap 30 -- began 30 minutes ago when they locked everybody in and said no more communicating. the prosecutor's called this man's practice a house of horrors and murdered not one but at least four live babies, staff members at the clinic say they saw each of the babies move, breathe, or whine, outside the mother's body, before the doctor
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cut their spinal cords with scissors. prosecutors cute him of murdering a patient, claiming his untrained, unlicensed staff, gave her a deadly drug overdose. the defense attorney called the prosecution's leadist and ray sis. jurors deliberated for now a total of ten days. shannon, any update? reporter: well, we heard that announcement about 45 minutes ago that it appeared the courtroom was going to lock down and there was a verdict. our producer, who was inside and has covered this for weeks, said the judge word them there would be two, quote, burly bailiffs at the door. no electronic communications can be used. the judge said you will get contempt of court, which could be a fine or jail. so we're on a blackout now also we wait. 268 counts against gosnell.
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nine against his co-defendant. eileen o'neill. eight have already pleaded guilty, including first degree murder. those clinic workers then testified against gosnell. so all of the counts have to be read before we get the breaking news, running from the courtroom to us here so we can report it on the air. there are five murder charge gosnell is facing here. four of the first degree murder charges related to babies that were allegedly born alive and then killed in the clinic, gosnell's attorney has maintained his competence, saying there was never any proof, no scientific evidence the babies were ever alive. he does not think gosnell will be convicted on murder counts. if he is, he could be facing the death penalty, and keep in mind the jury came to the judge this morning saying there are two counts where we're stuck. he told them, as judges always do with the report of being
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stuck to give it another try. so, what we understand at this point is they've gotten as far as they can. whether they did resolve the two charges with the two charges were among the 250-plus, we don't know. all we know at this point is it appears the verdict is in and we're on a blackout until i comes town and the doors open and everyone coming running out. >> shepard: of the 268 counts they couldn't reach agreement on two of them. >> the thing is, we don't know if it's two counts they were hung on, could have been any of the nine counts against the codefendants. so it's possible they weren't the gosnell counts. we were hoping when the jury was called back into the courtroom to talk about those counts we road find out what they were, the murder charges or lesser felonies or misdemeanor charges. that we don't know yet. but keep in mind in addition to the murder charges there are conspiracy and racketeers charges. 24 felony counts for gosnell
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performing abortions past their 24-week limit here in pennsylvania, as well as more than 200 misdemeanor accounts for accusations he would have patient friday in, not -- see them ask perform the abortion the same day. so we had our research team see if he was convicted on the felony misdemeanor counts, still adds up to more than 400 years in jail, a million dollar fine. but you take the murder charges off the table and there's no chance of the death penalty. so those are the big counts. four of those, and we wait to see whether any of those -- what the jury decided. >> shepard: we'll get right back you the moment we know anything. let's bring in our senior judicial analyst, judge andrew napolitano footprint. >> there's a lot to consider and we don't know which of t two counts the jury was huck on as of a few hours ago. there's very little dispute
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about these abortions occurred after the 24-week maximum period under pennsylvania law, and there's very little dispute he did not counsel the recipients of abortions as state law requires. those are the lesser charges. the lottery contested ones are the first degree murder and the third degree murder, the involuntary manslaughter, and the operating a racketeering venture, which is what he is also charged with which, if he is found guilty on, will bankrupt him because the government is entitled to seek treble damages for that. three times the amount of money he earn from the abortions, he would owe in fines. >> gosnell declined to testify in his defense, or even call witnesses at this capital murder trial. instead his attorney, guy named jack mcmahan, offered a passion not, often angry defense of his client, blaming the intense media interest in the case and the prosecution for creating what he called a tremendous rush to judgment, quoting here, never in my life have i seen the presumption of
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innocence more trampled on, stomped on, than in this case. mcmahon said, arguing that to the overdose death of the women in the clinic was a, quote, tragic accident and there was no scientific evidence that this 72-year-old man killed babies after they were born alive. that's a matter of contention in the courtroom. but the assistant district attorney, a guy named ed cameron in his closing argument told the story about his sick dog to the veterinarian to be put down with a shot to endues sleep first, and he said, coast, these babies didn't even get that. quote, my dog was treated better than he treated babies and women, according to cameron, the prosecutor. and that is because he didn't care. the prosecutor went on, he created an assembly line with no regard for these women whatsoever. the judge reminded the jurors of the -- the members of the jury to ignore portions of the emotional closing argument, including the charges of racism. quote, i attribute that to the
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emotion of the case. none of that is relevant for your consideration, it's not something you should consider in your deliberations. it's not part of the evidence. rebecca reb is is with us, a criminal defense attorney. this has been a horrifying procedure. >> this is nauseating. it -- everything in the trial is nauseating. the defense's activity has been -- they're unnecessary. to start any statement about racism when nothing had been brought up is really very out of what we should even say is proper evidence. it's not appropriate. he was facing charges based on the prosecution knowing that police officers went in to raid his little facility there, not for abortions, shep. for illegally prescribing drugs. and then they saw fetuses in a
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refrigerator. so, i think it's a bit extreme for any defense attorney to claim racism here. this has nothing to do with race. this has to do with the facts and evidence in the case where there's one woman who is clearly not here with us anymore, due to an overdose, and there are fetuses. the big question is, were they alive prior to the abortion proceeding or did he -- i know we don't want to be too grab -- or terminated after they were born. i don't think there's anything to do with racism and that's inappropriate, because a lot of his clients were 0 of the same ilk. >> the evidence in the case, people that pleaded guilty, that worked for dr. gosnell, testified the babies were breathing, gasping for air, whining, and moving about after the abortion, all indicative that they were alive. the expert wilts whom the defense hired and who the -- who
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the government hired were not able to say definitively they were alive because they never capped the baby. baby was killed by the doctor. the abortion was completed after the baby was removed from the mother's body. >> on the first day of deliberations, ten days ago, -- ten working days ago -- the jury sent out questions regarding one of the names of a patient and the definition of, quote, theft by deception. a man who is a medical school graduate is charged with participating in the operation of corrupt organization by theft and deception. gosnell also is charged with conspiracy, abortion at 24 or more weeks of pregnancy, theft, corruption of minors, solicitation and other related offenses. he and this other guy, o'neill, have pleaded not guilty. the babies gosnell is accused of killing include one that a former employee testified -- again, an employee testified,
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whined after i was, quote, expelled from its mother. one that a former employee testified was a large baby boy that breathed before having its next snipped. and was placed into a plastic bag the size of a shoe box. one of whose neck was snipped after the employee played with the baby. and one that was delivered into a toilet and appeared to be swimming before being scooped up and having its neck snipped. easy to listen to? absolutely not. appropriate for daytime television? you'll have to decide. those are the specific allegations. they're important in their specificity because it is the specificity which matters here to say that a baby was seen swimming in a toilet means that baby was alive. according to the testimony that happened inside the courthouse. the jury has to make those decisions. that's for the juror decide.
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not for me or anyone else to decide. the jury has to decide if, when a woman was seen, playing with a baby, prior to its, quote, neck being snipped, does that mean the baby was alive? well, there was a lot of testimony here and a lot of charges to go through. the defense attorney jack mcmahon maintained none of the infants was killed. not one. rather, the says, they were already deceased as a result of gosnell previously administering the drug which can cause abortion. again, can cause abortion. in his closing argument, he accused prosecutors of, quote, the most extraordinary hype and exaggeration in the history of the criminal justice system, up quote, add, they're elitist and racist. gosnell, who is african-american and has been accused by authorities of preying on low income minority women. mcmahon arguedded that dr. gosnell offered access to
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health care to people who were poor. and the abuse of corpse charges were thrown out relating to the storage of fetuses in plastic container. the judge dismissed one count of infanticide, the intentional killing of an infant. gosnell is cruised of reuse unsanitary instruments, performing procedures in filthy rooms in including some in which litter boxes and animals allegedly were present at the time and allowing unlicensed employees, including a teenage high school student to perform operations and administer anesthesia. nine others who work in the west philadelphia medical office, including his wife and sister-in-law, also were charged. eight have already pleaded guilty. it's our belief that the jury -- well, they've been reading the verdict inside the court. won't know any of what happened there with any specificity until after it's all finished. presumably until after the jury
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is polled and then out will come our reporters and producers from the courthouse, and we'll know the fate of this man and have a lot better idea about the beggar debate, and we'll have that all for you in breaking news after this. my mantra? trust your instincts to make the call. to treat my low testosterone, my doctor and i went with axiron, the only underarm low t treatment. axiron can restore t levels to normal in about 2 weeks in most men. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18 or men with prostate or breast cancer.
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thank goodness for angie's list. from roofers to plumbers to dentists and more, angie's list -- reviews you can trust. oh, angie? i have her on speed dial. >> shepard: continuing coverage now of breaking news in philadelphia where -- in the courthouse there were dr. kermit gosnell charged with 200 counts, including multiple count office murder in connection with the death of babies at the clinic where he provides abortion services. i'm confident many of you were following this and there are reports of what -- a verdict having been reached and read and some people know what it is. shannon is at the courthouse. it's my understanding that nobody has been allowed to leave the courtroom, and that nobody has been allowed to send out any information, and whatever you're reading anywhere on social media or on twitter is michigan -- is something you ought to wait because we don't know.
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>> absolutely. we have our open producer who has been inside for weeks covering this. she said the jump was very strict about this and said all electronics would have to be off in the courtroom why the verdicts were read or he would take them away. he told the media inside, if i see you using a phone or blackberry or anything else i will hold you in contempt of court, or i may. you know that can mean fines or jail time. so it appears most of the media are respecting that embargo. we know the doors were locked down and there were bailiffs at the door. so it's not 100% accurate to say anybody has the right information coming out. we want to wait for our own producer, for our own corn firmation, because anybody who is sending information from the courtroom, or claims to be, is either lie organize breaking the judge's rule and may land in jail. could expect our producer to come running out at any point. we know the jury has reached a verdict in total, some 267
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counts. it takes time to read each one as the jury works through so again, caution with any information coming out. we will confirm that with our own producer who was there with our own eyes and ears, and as soon as we get that and she comes running out. we'll bring it to our viewers and know it's the -- as we speak, here we go. christin, as we have -- okay, murder in the first degree, baby a. guilty. murder in the first degree. baby c. guilty. murder in the first degree, baby d, guilty. murder of the first degree of baby e, not guilty. and also murder in the third degree of the adult patient, karnamaya mongar, who died of overdose, but -- it appears by mien and kristen's hard work, that's three guilty verdicts on the first degree murder charges of three of the babies. the injure must have believed there were accurate signs of
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life. they're convinced beyond a reasonable doubt, and they've got to be unanimous on this -- there were first degree murder charge in three of these babies' cases are guilty, and so essentially that means this jury will into a sentencing phase and make a recommendation to the judge who will ultimately decide. but the choices on forward degree murder life in prison or the death penalty. so there are now three of those first degree murder convictions, guilty on those three counts. there are scores more on this -- but those are the most prominent and could mean life or death now for kermit gosnell. >> shepard: shannon, thanks. >> there is breaking news now on fox news channel. guilty, murder in the first degree on four counts. dr. kermit gosnell, murdered four living babies inside his abortion clinic, and he has received four counts of murder
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in the first degree, guilty. shannon, now kristen was in the courtroom, if you can set her up, we'd like to speak to her.what went down. first to judge andrew napolitano what does there is mean? >> the defense argue that this is racism and overplayed, this was elitist, was rejected by the jury, and the government presented adequate evidence to persuade a jury beyond a reasonable doubt these babies were born alive and that knowingly and intentionally killed by this doctor. if i may, there were three guilty verdicts on the killing of the babies. there's one not guilty verdict on the allegation of killing the fourth baby. and there's a verdict of involuntary manslaughter on the murder of one of the babies. what that means is, bottom line, three life sentences, at the minimum, and he is still exposed to the death penalty. the jury will start a new trial, whenever the judge decideds to do it.
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could be as soon as tomorrow -- in which the government will present evidence why he should be executed and the defense will present evidence why he should get life in spring the jury makes that determination. >> thoughts, rebecca. >> i'm completely -- i'm not shocked. let me say i'm not shocked. three guilty verdicts for three victims, children, that were alleged to have been born and then killed. the jury believed that. they saw evidence. they heard science. they heard from people who were in that room, that those babies were alive, and apparently beyond a reasonable doubt they found he was guilty of intentionally killing those three little babies. they were babies because they were born. >> to shannon outside the courthouse. shannon? are you ready? >> i am. we have kristen brown, our accuser, who has been through weeks of the time i want to let her tell everybody about kermit
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gosnell's reaction and what happened in the courtroom as the charges were read. >> sure, gosnell came into the courtroom. they read eileen neil's charges first, his codefendant. very upset and shaking. when they read the first degree murder charges for kermit gosnell and convict him he looked completely taken aback. he sort -- i'm just going to imitate his face. his shock, head pulled back. looked completely bewildered he was convicted on first degree murder. >> all along, this attorney, jack mcma hon, has been very confident and says there was never any evidence these babies were alive, and apparently that was a big surprise. >> i think the defense was quite shocked that the first degree murder charges came down against dr. gosnell. jack mcmahon, his defense attorney, looked very upset during the proofings win the verdicts were being read. had a very angry look on his face and was very shocked that first degree murder came down for them. >> any reactions from the jurors? we know this morning -- we don't no which two counts they were
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locked on. any hint from them? >> it was still unclear which counts they were locked most of them hat impassesive faces when the verdicts were read. to be honest they looked relieved. this is at the tenth day of deliberations and it's been a very long case for them. just tree -- to remind folks, the defense team did not put on any witnesses. jack mcmahon thought his job was done. >> he called no witnesses. a very dramatic day in the courtroom when that happened. he stood up and said, defense rests. the reporters were shocked. i think he thought based on the across of the prosecution witnesses that would be enough and clearly it was not. >> kristen has done hard work covering the trial. >> don't let her go.
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one more question. grab her. >> come back! >> did the judge say when the sentencing phase or when this next phase of the trial will begin? >> he has not announced that. a week from today for the penalty phase. the prosecution and the jury is still under a gag order, so we cannot talk to the jurors yet because they have to hear the evidence about the death penalty. i believe it's going to be a week from today. >> thank you very much, kristen. shep, back to you. >> shepard: thank you, let's bring back in judge napolitano. a week from today. or at some point they'll begin -- that's a long time. >> it is a long time. normally these things start right away, perhaps the government needs more time to put people on the stand. who -- we're going to hear from a lot of expert witnesses, talk about fetal pain, talk about the suffering these babies endured,
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because the government's burden is to show the murders were committed in a cruel and heinous manner, that the aggravating factors, the bad things about this case outweigh any mitigating factors, and the defense has an opportunity to show there are good aspects to this man's life and the mitigating factors should outweigh the aggravating and the jurors have to decide what they believe it's not a slam-dunk for execution. first of all, pennsylvania simply hasn't excused in -- executed in generations and it's a very difficult hurdle for the government to show that all the bad aspects of this outweigh any good aspects whatsoever in this man's life. that is what the jury will have to find in order to order the execution. >> with us now heather hansen who is live in philadelphia and was first to let us know of the verdict. heath center. >> hi. she. >> your thoughts. >> i am not surprised. i think that this jury did their jobs very, very seriously, and
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went through a 30-page verdict sheet step-by-step-by-step. their questions seemed to coincide with each page of the verdict sheet. i think that -- they considered baby c, which was one of the babies that was left after the judge threw out three of the counts. most specifically, the two different witnesses they asked be read back, specifically talked about baby. -- baby c. the jury took their came and came back with a true verdict. >> judge, there's a bigger issue here. and it has to do with how this particular political football is going to be tossed around now. >> i think you're right. you and i talked about this before. this may be -- correct me if i'm wrong -- the first first-degree murder trial. planned, plotted, heartless, cruel murder 0, to come out of
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abortion. so, the big picture is, is this going to affect abortions in the united states of america? is this going to send a message to other abortion doctors who may contemplate doing what this doctor was just convicted of doing? >> shepard: without getting into any of our own feelings on this matter, this is an issue -- this has always been on the table and now you wonder if it's not going to percolate quite a lot. >> you know what? the distinction here is these children were born alive and the jury has found they were born alive. is this the technicality might be, was this an abortion or an intentional killing of a live infant? >> shepard: wait. wait. listen. here's what happened. the jury ruled that this man murdered living human beings. >> that's right. >> shepard: be they a baby who was swimming in a toilet or being played with by a woman in the room. these counts don't have anything to do -- this first degree murder counts have nothing to do with abortion at all, and, judge, think that distinction is
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one of great importance. >> here's what the debate will be. a philosophical debate. how can it be moral and lawful for a physician to kill a baby inside the womb when it is criminal for him to do so outside the womb. that is the philosophical focus on abortion now in my view, from and after this case. it will be debated in state legislatures and the congress and on television and in courtrooms and then law schools and cafes and pubs and where people debate these things. a profound philosophical question the nice has to ask. >> just waylon of facts facts fo just waylon of facts and not opinion, when i was born and probably when you were born, they couldn't know as much about what was going on inside the body as they know now. when i was born, you couldn't see me sucking a thumb before i got out of there now you can. you constant monitor the fetal heartbeat not so long ago and now you can.
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you couldn't know the motions. there was much you could not know and many of the laws have not changed along with the knowledge i'm animal saying the laws should change but there's more information to be had now than there once was. >> even the prochoice folks objected to the trimester -- because with the advancement of science babies can live outside the woman earlier when the roe v. wade opinion was issued and yet the rules haven't changed. >> will it be under discussion the age at which there is viability. >> i think so. i think so. this case may very well heighten that discussion, which ought to be had in legislatures throughout the country. >> shepard: so the question now is, not weather this particular verdict on counts of murder in the first degree might have a
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more widespread impact but who l the facts about what we can indeed know about what happened inside a woman's body and when we can know that. now that they have been laid bear. will that be part of the public discourse? on the east coast, 12:30 on the west coast. this is fox news coverage of the verdict of kermit gosnell. guilty of murder in first degree of three when the jury ruled wore born alive in his office, his medical facility, his clinic, however you want to put it, born alive, and then according to a fining by a jury of his peers, dr. kermit gosnell murdered them on that table. and now we'll go on to another phase of this trial, where this same jury will hear witnesses, if either side so chooses and most likely the prosecution will, and in the case this legal analysts suggested that most
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likely the defense will as well, though did not during the trial itself, tabling witnesses at aggravating and mitigating circumstances. imagine a scale of justice where they'll say, these are the gag rating -- aggravating circumstances. for instance, the testimony who the jury clearly believed about one baby being born into a toilet and swimming in the toilet until the doctor removed the child from the toilet and murderedded the child. that would be most like lay mitigating circumstance. an aggravating circumstance, i should say. i'm certain they may be able to come up with some mitigating circumstances as well. sometimes things about the guilty party's life and background and things that have happened to and around that particular person. it's possible those may come into play, and that's all about whether he'll spend he rest of his born days behind bars or whether the government will kill him for his crimes. that's what we're down to. nothing left for the jury to.
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dr. kermit gosnell will never walk free again because a jury of his peers has just made it so. our coverage continues right after this. this is fox news channel. [ female announcer ] at jcpenney, we never stop being amazed by you. how you work so hard without looking like you do. how you make every dollar stretch so far and keep your family so close. so we brought back the things you liked about jcpenney. gave you new things to explore. and now, we're happy to say, you've come back to us. ♪ we're speechless. except for two little words. ♪
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except fo♪ two little words. ♪ (vo) purina cat chow. 50 years of feeding great relationship >> shepard: 25 minutes before the hour. continuing coverage of breaking news in the trial of kermit gosnell. the trial itself is over. he is guilty of murder in the first degree for the killing of three babies. we now have confirmed the next phase of this trial, which is
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the phase where they weigh aggravating and mitigating circumstances and decide whether he should face the death penalty or the rest of his life in prison -- that is scheduled to begin a week from today. a little unusual they would take so long between the case in chief and the next phase. it's possible that the government needed more time to get witnesses in. it's possible these jurors, who have been sequestered all the time needed to get back to their lives. after all they have lives that have been on hold here for a couple of weeks. shannon bream is outside the across. -- outside the courthouse. one week from today is the next phase. >> it is, and of course that's going to be very important because now we have the decision for kermit gosnell. a jury of his peers deciding whether he will live the rest of his life in prison. he is 72 years old. or whether they will serve up the death penalty for him, and as you know, many, many times here in this country, people die on death row because there is
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such a lengthy appeals process, through the state courts, the federal courts, the supreme court. and many times it takes years. so, prosecutors have said from the beginning they thought that gosnell would never be other free man again. regardless of which type of crimes he wag convicted of, because so many carry jail time and he is already 7 years old. -- 72 years old, his wife is on house arrest because she took a plea deal and actually testified, most of them against gosnell. she did not abuse spousal privilege but you have to wonder what testimony the jurors will hear now. they have been through a lot covering the trial but they have a very weighty decision to make. they're going to be paying attention very closely. you have to wonder if they're reaching their saturation point. i talk to our producer, who did a great job. we talked to her about the reaction from gosnell and his defense attorney, very, very surprised. they remained confident this entire time and many times we
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reported gosnell was laughing, joking, smiling in the courtroom. he seemed very taken aback. asked about the reaction of the prosecutors bass they have devoted weeks and months of their lives prepping this since the grand jury came back with its 300 page report. he said they were hugging and a lot of emotion on that side, too because there's been a lot invested in putting together the case against gosnell, and it's important to remind people the initial raid on his clinic had nothing to do with the charge about murder or late term illegal abortions. i it was about prescription drugs, whether there were illegal pills being sold through there. so, when the raid was initially conducted, it was about that, about pharmaceuticals, not about a murder case. so, it was shocking to the prosecutors and investigators what they found there and it's turn into a completely different case than the one they thought they were walking into upon the raid. so now, with a very different result than they could have imagined in the beginning when they were putting together the
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initial raid though clinic, much bigger, weightier condition, and the jury hayes to recommend when it comes to first degree murder charges for kermit gosnell. >> shepard: one of the differences here could very well be that dr. gosnell -- this jury has never heard him testify about anything. he was in the room but he never testified in his own defense. in fact nobody testified in his defense. that is most likely, though not certainly, but most likely, going to change, and judge napolitano, hit tells us that can have an impact. >> yes, it can. picture the defendant in a courtroom, pleading with the jury that just convicted hmm of first degree murder, for his life. that's probably what we'll see here. they have never heard this voice, unless they overheard him whispering to his lawyer. so the first time they hear
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anything out of mouth when be when he takes the witness stand. after the government presents his case, he looks the jurors in the eye and begs for the right to live, albeit in jail and albeit for the rest of his life without possibility of patrol. that will be high drama and a decision that only he, the defendant, not his lawyers, can make. >> bryan claypool is on the line. a doctor and director of the division of medical ethics at -- i'm are so, dr. arthur kaplan, the director of the medical ethics at nyu, and also used to work in philadelphia and would walk by the clinic with no idea what was going on in there. doctor, nice to talk to you. on a larger scale there's a lot to be considered. >> there is. there's some immediate points -- this guy is convicted of a slew of crimes. i don't know whether he'll get the death sentence but he certainly won't be leaving prison alive. the number of crimes he is
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guilty of will keep him in there forever. but he ran his clinic for a very long time, and no one inspected it, no one saw it. i walked past it. but clinics are supposed to get examined with the state and city, and no one dade. they could have prevent some of this if they that gotten in there in a more timely way. thed up in emergency rooms. they didn't report where they were coming from. that's problem that needs some attention. and then in the big picture of abortion, well you know, pro and anti-abortion sides would make a lot of the case. to me, the take-home message you have to make him an unnecessary figure, which means let's push the contraception and let's push emergency contraception the way to avoid kermit gosnell is to make the demand for them far less. >> doctor -- judge, one of the thing wes learned in the trial is they weren't inspect as much as most people would want them to or as often as math seem
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appropriate. we also learned that less than two and a half miles ware the planned parenthood clinic, which offers services to women in need, under the letter of the law, had babies been aborted under the letter of the law in that state less than six months. there would have been none of this. >> well, you're right. the state of pennsylvania really has a black mark on it for allowing this type of behavior to go unnoticed by a licensed professional. can anybody sue? no because the state is immune from the consequences of liability for this type of behavior. the state's indifference towards the unsaner to -- unsanitary conditions and slaughter going on in the gosnell medical office cannot form the basis of litigation against the state by anybody who suffered as a result of it. >> shepard: thanks. we'll have much more on this after a quick commercial break.
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and there's new information on the killing of our ambassador in libya, and the raid that happened there, the terrorist attack in benghazi. the president has spoken on this. and first on fox it's my understanding you heard about this irs controversy under which the irs now admitted it targeted some right-wing groups, some tea party types, for extra investigation or whatever. the president said it will not stand. we now know a hearing is scheduled on this matter on capitol hl, so we'll have more on gosnell, more on benghazi, and now the irs controversy will some brand new news. [ jackie ] its just so frustrating...
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>> shepard: breaking news now. the attorney from this case now speak live. >> and a jury has spoken, and we respect that verdict, and a lot of hard work on both sides, and the jury worked hard, too, and they came up with their verdict, and obviously we respect it. >> jack, calling kermit gosnell -- [inaudible] >> no. >> why not? >> it's not -- again, still a bit of a gag order on, still a penalty phase that is potentially going to happen in a week. so i don't want to comment at this time. at the time it was a decision we thought was the right decision to go forward on this case. and again -- >> still think that is true. >> pardon me? >> you still think that is the right decision. >> yes, i do. [inaudible] >> what did the doctor say you after the verdict was read? >> he didn't say much -- i will
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say this, that dr. gosnell showed me a little bit of something when, before the verdict ever came in, he thanked me very much for my effort, which is to me says a lot about it before any verdict occurred, and i respected that out of him. but again, the verdict is one that -- i mean, started this case with eight murders. then seven measures and miss mongar was not guilty and four other not guilties and there were three that were so we have to deal with that. >> will you put him on the stand? >> i don't know. >> jack, the has the prosecution indicatedit will seek death penalty or will you give up appeal for life. >> sometimes that happens. i'm not saying it will happen here but that's always a possibility. >> what's dr. 0 gosnell's state of mind right now? >> as any intelligent human being would be at this point in
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time. disappointed and upset. we aired our position on this over a long trial. we had a fair trial. we got to put out our position, and the jury spoke, and to me, that's what our system is all about. we had an opportunity, we presented it, worked hard, and we thought we had issues, legitimate issues to present to them, and the jury obviously did their job. let's -- again, let's thank them for their efforts in spending all this time on it. they tide a lot of work, and as i said, they -- the verdict should be respected based on the efforts. [inaudible] >> no, no. it's a massive trial. there was -- as we started the case, there were seven -- eight different homicide trials to start the case. there was eight of them. seven infants and then one lady, and so that's a lot of testimony, a lot of evidence, and this jury worked very, very,
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very hard, and they should be commended. again, i respect what juries do. i don't always agree but i respect everything they did and should be commended for their efforts. >> charged with -- >> pardon me? >> how politically charged his case was with the abortion issue and so many other issues that were swirling around, they were able to really focus -- >> i have confidence in the juries and how they proceed. i mean, although i do -- there is also built of feeling on the defense part of, what salmon must feel like swimming upstream. that's what we felt like in this case but i think the jury -- i don't believe that. there's been a lot of publicity, a lot of negative publicity, but i have confidence in the jury system and the people that take their job seriously and i don't think they are influenced by that.
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>> does your client deserve to be executed of what he has been come investigated of? >> we have the issue before the jury. >> what is your biggest obstacle in this case? [inaudible] >> it is a very difficult case. there's a lot of emotion. you have the baby factor, which is a big problem. there's the media, been overwhelmingly against him. but again, i don't think that's what did it. that's just a byproduct. the jury listened to the evidence. we presented an aggressive defense. we think we did it in a fair way, and in a hard-working way, and they found what they found. they familiar him not guilty of four -- wait a minute -- five different murders was a not guilty so obviously they paid
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attention. they didn't just come downey jerk and fine him guilty of everything. they found -- this jury found five -- five murder count were not guilty they obviously took their job seriously. >> jack, three first degrees, make the prosecution's job easier and yours tough center. >> multiple murder is is an aggravated circumstance so that gives them an aggravating circumstance to are argue so, obviously, more than one would be -- suffice for that aggravating circumstance. >> what factors can you argue to save his life? >> i don't want to comment on this. there's still a gag order. >> your client is -- enigma. can you tell us about the man, the person? we don't know much about him. >> again, that's not -- we're still under a gag order as far as what we intend to present, as far as evidence is concerned.
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potential penalty phase, and therefore i don't want to comment on that. >> shepard: well, it may be interesting to many of you he said he was comfortable with his decision not put gosnell on the attempt did not call any witnesses or present any evidence or testimony. the reason for that, as i've been discussing here with judge napolitano, is that -- well, one of the reasons possible is that he was able to destroy one of the state's contentions, that there is -- that these babies were born to a medical certainty. they were alive before he killed them. and the defense attorney in this case was able to get the state's expert witnesses to say they could not say to any -- with any degree of certainty the babies were born alive, that these were not abortions per se, but live murders. and in that way, it is possible that he thought, i just won this case.
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of course, at the same time, you had testimony from people who were inside the room, the one who spoke of the -- well, the toilet where one child was born. and said, the child was swimming. another who said she played with the child before the doctor snipped its spinal cord. so if you are reading into this the doctor had experts who could not say with any degree of certainty the babes were born live, and witnesses who said, i saw them. they were alive. one could surmise that the judge -- the jury believed those who were actually in the room. and whether he -- what he will do in this next phase of the trial, and probably rightly under the orders of the court, is a matter for another day, that there's still a gag order in place. >> we have received a statement from planned parenthood, and this is from eric ferrero from planned parenthood. this is a quote. the jury has punished kermit
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gosnell for is a appalling crimes. this verdict ill ensure that nowomans victimized by kerr it in gosnell ever again. the quote continues: this case has made clear that we must have and enforce laws that protect access to safe and legal abortion, and we must reject misguided laws that would limit women's options and force them to seek treatment from criminals like kermit gosnell. again, this is from eric ferrero, plant parenthood federal racing of america, vice-president for communication. in other words the spokesperson for planned parent hood. heather hanson is with us. heather, it is clear they're now going into the death penalty phase but as i was discussing on set, the average wait for a -- for the carrying out of a death sentence in california is 20 years. in texas, it's about ten years.
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and those are states where executions happen with some degree of frequency under the letter and terms of the law and the court. pennsylvania is not one of those states and it could take even longer. dr. gosnell is 72. >> that's absolutely right. the likelihood -- in's a we have only had three death penalties actually carried out since 1976. the likelihood he is actually going to be put to death is probably slim to none and we have yet to her the penalty face. it was interesting mr. mcmahon said potentially we will have a penalty phase there may still be some plea discussions in the works. >> all you have left now is, we'll take life in prison, and if you're the prosecutors here, would you entertain such a matter? >> well, no. no. i think they've got their case. they run the risk of losing on the penalty phase. in pennsylvania we have 18 aggravating factors, eight mitigating factors. i was looking at them quickly
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and temperatures gosnell falls into at least three. so there's going to be an interesting case when it gets into the penalty phase. >> if it does. i noticed those words and found them interesting as well. continuing coverage in just a moment. i mentioned this new information on the irs targeting conservative groups. the president's news conference, which included matters of benghazi -- and we'll get to that as we can after this.
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>> shepard: guilty of murder one, dr. commit gosnell. why would they not have a penalty phase? the defense could offer we promise you we will not appeal for the rest of life in prison. it's possible. see you tonight. >> neil: today's other being story. sorry, apology not accepted and, mr. president, sorry as well, neither was your explanation today. >> don't want the irs ever being perceived to be bias and anything less than neutral. this is something that people are properly concerned about. >> neil: that is an understatement, and get ready, this is about to get worse, and apparently the message from conservatives is this: not being straight about what happened in benghazi is one thing. going straight to the irs to target groups you don't like, that is quite another thing. and that is the charge,